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The Bob Kane/Bill Finger Debate - WD Comics

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Bob Kane may have "created" Batman, but Bill Finger created Batman. Find out what the hell that means in today's episode. Like us on Facebook! http://facebook.com/wulffden Previously Sexism in Comics http://youtu.be/CXOXDPNKClA Sexism in Nerd Culture http://youtu.be/PbBvbYos79U More about Bill Finger Comics Alliance http://comicsalliance.com/ask-chris-164-bob-kane-is-just-the-worst/ Fatman on Batman ep 53 http://smodcast.com/episodes/marc-tyler-nobleman-the-fickle-finger-of-fledermaus/
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Text Comments (150)
scott greg (8 days ago)
Just curious but why didn't Bill Finger take his case to court back then or at least, talk to the heads of DC back in the day?
Louis Hamilton (1 month ago)
Yeah, he 'created Batman....or DID he?? Kane was a HACK.
Dm Punk (1 month ago)
Fuck Bob Kane!!!
Hablando Boxeo (2 months ago)
Bob Kane was a crook
Bryan Steele (3 months ago)
In the mid 2000's, about when batman begins came out oddly enough I started to get back into comics and in a big way, that is when a lot of movies and cartoons and Tv shows of comic characters started being released with tons of documentaries and special features. I was always wondering how come nobody in the comic industry, other than Bob Kane's wife would talk about Bob Kane, the man that created arguably the most popular character in comics? A lot of these famous name in the industry would go on and on about their peers like Jim Steranko, Gardner Fox, Dick Sprang, Jerry Robinson, Stan Lee, John Romita, Jack Kirby, Gil Kane, Chris Claremont, Len Wein, Steve Ditko, John Byrne, Marv Wolfman, Bill Finger....the list goes on. And now we know why. I'll give Bob Kane credit for one thing, I think he was one of the better artist in the Golden Age era, but that's about it. The guy is a bonafide piece of shit.
AsgersWeb (3 months ago)
Bob kane is a dick
Julio Godoy Laparra (5 months ago)
Bill Finger deserves credit as well. Without his contribution Batman would not be what he is now.
Jack Torrance (6 months ago)
So now Bill Finger will receive credit for creating Batman. If I had it my way he would receive top billing above Bob the piece of shit Kane. What did Bob do other then come up with the name? No, Bill is the one who invented the Batman that we know and love. Bob was just a money and attention whore who I hope is getting raped by Satan's pitchfork in hell.
JJ Hooligan (9 months ago)
Bill's name should come before Kane's, he always deserved top billing. Anyone can come up with a name and execute a terrible likeness of a character, but Bill really brought it to life. Kane was a lying SOB and a proven plagiarist.
jack raj (10 months ago)
Bill finger the best
Tanner Gehling (1 year ago)
Without Bob Kane, Batman would not exist. Without Bill Finger, Batman would not exist as we know him.
corey wiley (1 year ago)
I don't think it is necessary or good to vilify and hate Kane. Give credit to Bill Finger , Jerry Robinson and Bob Kane for creating the characters and let's try to be more mindful in the future to acknowledge input from others during collaborations.
GMWOR (1 year ago)
I think bill finger deserve all the right and bob kane should deserve nothing because he cheated. If he wouldn't have cheated then he should have been called co-creator
Gabriel Petricevic (1 year ago)
Yeah well Jim Steranko slapped the shit out of him so im happy
ALEX RIOS (1 year ago)
I absolutely believe Bill Finger should get credit for Batman.
Stadiumjay (1 year ago)
Bob Kane was a snake it's that simple who Knowingly would take all the credit for something they know they didn't create alone?
Green Lantern (1 year ago)
Green Lanter was created by Martin Nodell not Bill Finger! Martin Nodell was the ONLY creator of Green Lantern.
Jordan TRusso (1 year ago)
Bill Finger is the definitive creator of Bat man, Bob Kane was a selfish lying asshole.
jabezcreed (2 years ago)
Having an omnibus of golden age Batman stories, it's not surprising how anyone would think Bob Kane was the sole creator behind Batman. Every first page of each specific issue of Detective Comics has "by Bob Kane" in the header. If Bill Finger or anyone else was writing the issues, why would DC have let Bob Kane put only his name in the byline?
Pulsar Stargrave (2 years ago)
In the early days, DC didn't have a bullpen, they had agreements with cartoonists who sold their strips to DC to be published. Kane, William (Wonder Woman) Marston and a handful of others managed to get better deals for their strips\concepts because they had lawyers. It's similar to how Image is today, the difference is EVERYBODY gets "credit". Kane began to lose control of Batman when DC started hiring their own "ghosts" to work on the Bat books because they wanted to really crank that stuff out. He acted as sort of an art director for the Batman line but Jack Schiff (Bat editor)was REALLY in charge of the DC staff. Rather than wait for a Bob Kane or a Siegel and Shuster to stroll in the door, eventually, DC started to hire former cartoonists and writers as editors and they created concepts for the company that the company would own outright and that's how it was at least since the mid 40s up until the 80s when Jim Shooter (Marvel) and Dick Giordano (and Jeanette Kahn?) began to create royalty agreements for creators. There have been a LOT of great books published on the Comic Book and Newspaper strip industries. I like real info, I'm not interested in salacious gossip and half truths. If you're interested in Newpaper strips at all, Brian Walker wrote excellent books about the comic strip and how it got started: The Comics Before and Since 1945
jabezcreed (2 years ago)
Cool, thanks for the explanation. So basically the cartoonist (Bob Kane) was able to call the shots essentially, since that's how the business was in those days. It's fascinating to how much an industry can change in a few decades time.
Pulsar Stargrave (2 years ago)
Simply put, in the early DC days, DC acted more like a publisher and if Bob Kane, Siegel and Shuster or anybody else hired a staff, these people worked for and were paid by the Cartoonist or the team, not by DC so whatever "credit" they were given was up to the assistant's boss, which was usually none because these people came and went as they pleased all the time. Some writers who worked as scripters or even plot assistants actually preferred it that way because it was usually "hack" work which they used to pay the bills and didn't want their name associated with "funny" books; because their goals were to be published in "real" magazines or novels. This wasn't something Bob Kane invented as it was done in the newspaper strips and in other fields as well. When DC and other publishers like Fawcett started hiring writers and artists as freelancers for their own "bullpens", they didn't give out "credit" either for some of the same reasons but also so they could stifle ego trips or demands for better pay.
Andrew Dayton (2 years ago)
cool video, & yea Bill should get credit to
Gabriel Petricevic (2 years ago)
Wow Bob Finger is a badass
Pulsar Stargrave (2 years ago)
If you meant Bob Kane and Bill Finger were badasses you were right up to a point. I say Kane was because he and his staff created BATMAN without any help from DC, short of publishing and distribution of course.
Gabriel Petricevic (2 years ago)
I meant Bill Finger.Im a fucking idiot.
TriforceRich (2 years ago)
By many accounts, Bob Kane is terrible and doesn't deserve the credit he gets. That being said, without him there would be no Batman.
Pulsar Stargrave (2 years ago)
By many accounts Bob Kane was AWESOME he showed creators how they could deal with the publishers and Joe Simon was even better. It's easy to parrot what some inner-industry malcontents say, but many of these people were second generation creators who CHOSE to work under "work for hire the company owns it all conditions", in the early days of comics, Kane worked for Eisner and Iger under similar circumstances, he chose to LEAVE when his boss Jerry Iger wouldn't give him a raise. He sought another publisher, got a better deal and the rest is history.
Friedrich Cruz (2 years ago)
yes I think its better batman created by bob kane and bill finger. I showd in the credits in Batman v superman
1982Nightwing (2 years ago)
Now, Batman created by Bob Kane with Bill Finger now. About time
DONALD ALLEN (2 years ago)
Yes Bill Finger should get the credit without him we would not have the Batman that we all know and love.
Pulsar Stargrave (2 years ago)
I would add GARDNER FOX to that statement. He wrote the origin and HIS Batman was the tough, no nonsense version AND he invented the "Bat" gadgets. In Finger's second story, his Batman behaved more like the laughing Zorro.
Obscure Entertainment (2 years ago)
I think Bill Finger is credited in the opening credits of Batman v Superman.
Jon Carroll (2 years ago)
yes and I believe in the comics now as well.
fnaf mobile (2 years ago)
i im Finger yes im from the most family of Batman creator
Mari (2 years ago)
Bob Kane and Bill Finger both created Batman.
Mari (2 years ago)
+Pulsar Stargrave Yeah.
Pulsar Stargrave (2 years ago)
+Super Gamer I agree, but Bob Kane was THE BOSS and that's what I've always argued. Now that Bill is given "credit" for helping develop the series the whiners will have to find a new martyr to glomb onto! What I'm really interested in is learning if The Kane Estate gave permission, because like I said, I don't like the idea of corporations not honoring the contracts they make with either individuals or especially, small businesses. To me, that's a big picture issue that's very important to me outside the funny book world,
Someone With Taste (2 years ago)
Imma get a dog, go to LA and let him shit on that star.
Trenton Baucom (2 years ago)
Marc Tyler Nobleman signed the book for me tonight
rob pena (3 years ago)
no Bob Kane no batman. period. even if Bill helped come up with the bat we know today. the fact is it without that first sketch there is no batman
BigTTheGod96 (7 months ago)
That first sketch was edited by bill finger. Batman as a whole was made by Bill Finger.
JJ Hooligan (9 months ago)
rob pena Oh and No Bill Finger...no Gotham, Dark Knight, Batmobile, Batcave....shall I go on?
JJ Hooligan (9 months ago)
rob pena Yet, had there been no Bill Finger, Batman wouldn't have made it past one issue. Kane was a plagiarist with no imagination.
shus Best (3 years ago)
bob kane had the idea to make the hero. but I mostly going to give the credit to Bill finger
NazcarFanatic24 (3 years ago)
My ultimate concern over this is ultimately where is the proof. Yes we have Kane's original drawing, but other than that all that we know about this story has just been from the claims of others like Steranko and Bill finger, there ultimately is no proof that of Kane's fake lie about his age, no documents that prove any of these claims. Only people's word against bob Kane. Like what never made sense is HOW did Kane convince a company that he was underage when he signed a contract, a company isn't going to give a guy royalties and a shitload of money without checking records, which they could have done and they would have found that Kane was lying.
Pulsar Stargrave (3 years ago)
+NazcarFanatic24 And how do YOU know that what this guy wrote in his book is what really happened? You did notice that he had no bibliography or quotes, didn't you?
Dr_Rhinoceros (3 years ago)
Bill Finger deserves 100% credit for Batman. Bob Kane vaguely inspired Batman with a very poor drawing, Bill Finger created Batman.
Louis Hamilton (1 month ago)
Let's NOT forget JERRY ROBINSON for giving Bats his illustrative quality.
Pulsar Stargrave (3 years ago)
+Dr_Rhinoceros I didn't say Batman was a copy of Spring Heeled Jack, I was saying the cape and cowl are WAY TOO Similar. And the particular Penny Dreadfuls i was talking about, which had that type of "batlike" (as opposed to devil like) cape and cowl were published in the 1910s or 20s*. And I think I've given PLENTY of evidence that Finger was a swiper, and like I said, the line between "influence" and "theft" is thin. Kane and Finger were both swipers but that doesn't get in the way of my enjoying their work, I just think it's part of the charm. *CORRECTION: The Cover of the SPRING HEELED JACK edition in question was published in 1904.
Dr_Rhinoceros (3 years ago)
+Pulsar Stargrave You do tealize that the penny dreadfuls of Spring Heeled Jack ( not Steel Heeled Jack, though he was originally called Steel Jack) were based off English folklore that originated in 1837. However, even if it was a source for Batman's overall appearance it would still be just inspiration, as it is not a carbon copy of the original, and is not all too similar to the entirety of the concept of Batman.
Pulsar Stargrave (3 years ago)
+Dr_Rhinoceros What I'm suggesting is based on evidence. Either it's an extraordinary coincidence that Steel Heel Jack's cape and cowl resembles Batman's or Bill Finger is guilty of unconscious plagiarism. I tend to favor the latter opinion. Why? 1.Bill Finger admitted he was "influenced" by The Phantom, who in his black and white daily comic strips appeared to have a "gray and black" costume (in the color Sundays, of course it was purple and black). 2. When coming up with the name "Bruce Wayne", he didn't dream them up he used historical sources, in other words, sources outside of his imagination. I'm not saying it's a bad method, but it can lead to problems if it becomes a habit. 3. Of course there is the now infamous "Partners In Peril" incident; obvious swiping from KING KONG and some of the early "Film Noir\Gangster movies; having "Boss Zucco" talk too much like Edward G. Robinson's Boss Ricco; The Joker's visage coming from Conrad Veidt's make-up; Two Face's constant coin flipping like Scarface, etc. 4. In "The First Batman" Finger wrote how Bruce Wayne might have seen his father Thomas dress up like a "bat-man" for a costume party (an outfit that's very much like Kane's original costume, minus the red) and simply forgot it, but it affected his choice of becoming another Batman. Now, the Steel Heeled Jack penny dreadfuls came out in the 1910s or 20s, I don't remember which, but could he have seen one when he was a kid and forgotten it? That's about 20+ years-- we've had comic books survive longer than that to this day! 5. Commissioner "Wildcat" Gordon--was a "Perry Mason" like pulp hero --BEFORE Batman's Commissioner Gordon popped up! Another "influence". Conclusion: Bill Finger was a notorious swiper, just like Kane. Artists and writers have been guilty of swiping from each other for centuries, even Kirby swiped! But creators like them definitely need to go over their ideas with an editor, somebody who can say "I've heard (or seen) this before" so that the publisher doesn't get hit with a plagiarism lawsuit, because the line between "influence" and "theft" is very thin. As far as the ideas go, they weren't ALL his, every Kane Studio member who witnessed them interact, say that Kane did contribute, either his own ideas or in conversation with Bill, because it WAS a studio system but in constructing his stories, Bill frequently used other sources. When I think of Finger, I think of how good the actual writing was, the dialogue and his captions. Good stuff for the early comic books. This is what most of his peers have acknowledged and as a fan, so do I.
Dr_Rhinoceros (3 years ago)
+Pulsar Stargrave My intent was not to insult,claiming something to be idiotic, when it is indeed idiotic is not insulting, but rather just factual.
Eric Curto (3 years ago)
Open up Batman Chronicles, it acknowledges Bill Finger as the writer and Jerry Robinson as inker, but it seems like you guys are spending so much time on your crusade to shit on Bob Kane's credit to get Bill Finger acknowledged that you are also shitting on another creator
Pulsar Stargrave (3 years ago)
+Eric Curto You can't reason with fanatics. I've seen this type before, the ones who say "Herman Mankiewicz" is "really" responsible for the success of CITIZEN KANE or that Ub Iwerks "really" created Mickey Mouse or that Tex Avery "really" created Bugs Bunny. You can tell them all about what happens when you choose to do freelance work as opposed to writing a novel where you have a LOT more control and it just goes in one ear and out the other. Just stick to the facts and leave the nonsense to them, they just look pathetic and they really don't give a crap about Bill. If they did, they would have talked about something DC CAN do something about, namely Green Lantern and Wildcat!
DoctorPretorious616 (3 years ago)
Thank you for bringing this issue to light, Batman would never have been remembered as the pop culture phenomenon and legend of modern folklore that he is today without the brilliant contributions of Bill Finger.  The fact that DC Comics will most likely never officially give Finger credit for his ideas is an absolute injustice.  Bob Kane was a thieving hack who came up with the basic idea for Batman, drew the earliest stories quite badly, and did NOTHING ELSE.
Pulsar Stargrave (3 years ago)
+DoctorPretorious616 I hope Nobleman read that because this is what I'm talking about. I wasn't aware that someone interested in the facts about Kane, Finger and the genesis of Batman made one an "anti-Finger troll"? I like Finger's writing and I have never said he wasn't important, but at the end of the day, once he left Kane, Finger had his own life to lead and whatever that entailed, it was all on him.And I've also said GARDNER FOX never gets credit from Finger's fans for his contributions.
DoctorPretorious616 (3 years ago)
Pulsar, you keep posting your anti-Finger troll comments at interminable length but I've never seen so many words amount to so little, because all I get from your posts is "HURR HURR BOB KANE IS TEH AWESOME, BILL FINGER SUX HE DESERVED TO DIE PENNILESS HURR HURR".  And it's really gotten tiresome, because even in the face of facts that contradict everything you're saying, you keep pissing on Bill Finger's grave while apparently wanting to molest Bob Kane's corpse!  So from your point of view, comic book creators should all subjected to some Darwinian agenda of "survival of the fittest"; and because Finger chose to work as a ghost writer wasn't the most savvy businessman, wasn't good about keeping up deadlines towards the the end of his life, he deserved to die in poverty and get no credit in the shaping of the Batman legend?  Whether or not it made financial sense for Bob Kane to list as a co-creator, it was the right thing to do morally.  Just so you know, the comments here indicate you're outnumbered on this matter and no one agrees with you, just give up your trolling and find something worthwhile to do with your life.
Pulsar Stargrave (3 years ago)
+Marc Tyler Nobleman "Fair" can be biased in itself, leaning one way or the other like The Tower of Pisa. But if it gives insight into Finger's return to comics, I'll at least take a second look at it. BTW Kane didn't "confess" because his conscience was bothering him; he was being interviewed by David Anthony Kraft's people and he trusted them to be respectful, fair and unbiased. In my opinion, it made no sense to retroactively make Finger a "partner" (especially long after his passing) because how Finger managed his own career demonstrated that Kane made the correct decision all along and his lawyers probably advised against it in any way, shape or form. I'm not a legal expert but I have read similar cases. If you like to do research on the subject, don't just look at the comic BOOK industry, also look at what other creators in other fields and industries have gone through. CIAO!
Marc Tyler Nobleman (3 years ago)
+Pulsar Stargrave My book is not neutral. But it's fair and it's accurate.
Pulsar Stargrave (3 years ago)
+Marc Tyler Nobleman You could have cited the pages without revealing your I.D. but who knows, maybe I'll set up my own YouTube page; it might be fun to have a go at it1 And if your book is neutral on the subject of Kane and Finger, then I'll put it on my "Buy it" list. If nothing else, it might give me some insight as to how Finger found himself back in comics, after escaping to write for television. THAT'S what I'm interested in, not cheapshots describing Kane as a "bedwetter"! More can be learned by future writers (and artists) from the facts behind a given situation than some biased crap passing itself off as "scholarship". "The trouble with being a "ghost" writer or artist is that you must remain rather anonymously without credit. However, if one wants the "credit," then one has to cease being a ''ghost" or follower and become a leader or innovator. (There must be a moral there somewhere for aspiring young cartoonists and writers)." BOB KANE, "The Bob Kane Letter 1965 I hope he's right.
Shantae (3 years ago)
That isn't fair at all! Bill Finger deserves all the credit! The guy who made Batman who he is today, who practically came up with every single idea for Batman except for Batman himself. If you say he doesn't deserve any credit than you must be batshit crazy.
Hector Alvarez (3 years ago)
Bill Finger true creator of Batman
Mari (2 years ago)
+Pulsar Stargrave No you don't.
Mari (2 years ago)
+Pulsar Stargrave k
Pulsar Stargrave (2 years ago)
+Super Gamer I still know more than you.
Mari (2 years ago)
+Pulsar Stargrave Bye you know nothing.
Pulsar Stargrave (2 years ago)
+Hector Alvarez In your dreams...
River Andersen (3 years ago)
River Andersen (3 years ago)
wtf is wrong with bob kane hes so mean
Mari (2 years ago)
Um no he's not.
Steve Stevensteverson (3 years ago)
This is an amazing video, and as a huge Batman fan, I had no idea.  Thank you for making me aware of it.  Someone needs to give Bob Kane and DC Comics the Finger.
Pulsar Stargrave (3 years ago)
+Lone432345 Of course you know the writer of that blog is BIASED and from what I remember, he "conveniently" left out the fact that Finger worked for Kane and that Kane was his boss. He used to (I don't know about now) give Finger TOO MUCH credit by ignoring Gardner Fox' contributions as well as the screenwriters of the first BATMAN movie serial. But having assistants does NOT make one a "charlatan". Jerry Robinson himself spoke well of Kane's cartooning as did Lew Schwartz, Kane didn't let his personal ghost assistants take over until the late 40s. A lot of these bloggers either don't know what they're talking about OR deliberately distort the facts for their own purposes. But of course, that shouldn't be news to most websurfers. Let's be clear, I'm not bashing Bill on this issue, it's just that the issue is a non-issue. Finger knew what he was doing and he had plenty of chances to create his own character, without Kane and make a similar deal (or a better one) with either DC or All American but he chose not to.
Lone Star (3 years ago)
+Steve Stevensteverson (Mac) Ive known about this for a long time. I first found a documentary about the creation of batman. But i really didn't know just how much of a charlatan Bob Kane was until i read this.  http://www.dialbforblog.com/archives/389/
Pulsar Stargrave (3 years ago)
+Steve Stevensteverson Then you would be mistaken about a "huge hand". Undoubtedly, it was a "Studio System" but Finger did NOT create all of the aspects that make up the "Bat-Verse". What Finger fans don't want to mention is that it was GARDNER FOX who first came up with The Batarang, The Bat Gyro (precursor of the Bat-Plane) and The Belt of Gas Capsules that evolved into the Utility Belt. And the jury is out on who wrote the origin. Kane claims he suggested to Bill that Bats should be an orphan (like Superman was?) but Mr. Fox came forward and said that HE wrote the origin and unlike some people, I'm not going to suggest that he lied because of some vague "feeling" that it "sounds" like Bill. (Like Don Cameron's work "feels" like Bill's?!) No, Mr.Fox was a professional and wasn't somebody who was desperate for "credit". He said he wrote it and that's good enough for me. Finger's contributions were important but he was mostly there because Kane knew him and trusted him, while Fox was a friend of one of the DC editors. BTW there are a LOT of books about Batman, his origins, Bob Kane and Bill Finger, if your local comic shop doesn't have any, consult your local library. My problem is that I'm so well-versed in Batman (it's my all-time favorite series, followed by DICK TRACY) I assume that a lot of people know as much as I do. My only advice is that you seek out neutral material where no one chooses "sides" whether pro Finger or con Kane or vice versa. There are lots of "sagas" about comic book related "screw jobs" but this isn't one of them.
Steve Stevensteverson (3 years ago)
+Pulsar Stargrave Even so, I didn't know about Bill Finger at all.  The exact details are always gonna be a little fuzzy but I now know he had a huge hand in creating the Bat universe.
Pulsar Stargrave (3 years ago)
+Marc Tyler Nobleman If I remember correctly, Finger came forward after Jules Ffiefer wrote his book "The Comic Book Makers" and gave the credit for the Batman writing to Kane. Bill came forward and rightfully clarified things, I have no problems with that. HOWEVER, I can't remember the name of the fanzine writer, but he tried to claim that BILL was the "real" creator of Batman and Bill said no such thing, he just commented on his contributions. This fanzine writer wrote "A FINGER IN EVERY PLOT (which also contains errors) which tried to claim "Finger did it all!" and THIS is what caused Kane to blow his top! This is also the kind of stuff I object to, going way overboard about Finger's role, although it was considerable; but going so far as to claim Kane did nothing, that is NOT the whole story. and beyond disingenuous. And again, Kane is NOT the only cartoonist who has been less than forthcoming about having assistants, for many of their own reasons--but he did come clean in 1985 or '86 but I notice a lot of people forget that.
Pulsar Stargrave (3 years ago)
This is an old debate but the main problem is the issue of "creator rights" has been erroneously tied to the debate. What every one who works in the United States and elsewhere understands is there is a difference between what happens when you work for yourself and when you work for someone else. That should be the end of the story but comic fans who know VERY LITTLE about the details involving Kane and Finger put out distorted tales of woe about their relationship. 1. Bob Kane NEVER had the idea for Batman to have BLONDE HAIR! That is what someone who worked for ROY THOMAS' ALTER EGO magazine cooked up, because they discovered that the pose Kane used for the cover of 'TEC COMICS 27 was "swiped" from a Flash Gordon panel. If Kane had intended Batman to have blonde hair, Bruce Wayne would have it, wouldn't he? Also, Finger said in an interview that Kane's original Batman looked "very much like Superman" and Supes is NOT a blonde! 2. A SUGGESTION doesn't a "creator" make because a suggestion can be accepted or rejected and ALL Finger's suggestions were just those. Kane was the one who accepted them and executed them in a way that worked for him. So in the strict sense of the word he CREATED BOTH versions, it's just that he had help with the second one. BTW recent discoveries have revealed that NONE of Finger's suggestions were based on his own ideas but were cobbled from previous characters. I only bring it up because  some claim Kane "stole" Batman from Bill but Bill  had his hand in the cookie jar when it comes to "thievery". I notice you didn't mention that "Partners in Peril" business, I wonder why not? 3. Bill WASN'T Bob Kane's partner, he signed up to be a "GHOST" writer. There was a standard (separate from general policies  about credit from publisher to publisher) where if a CARTOONIST hired an assistant writer, gag writer, background artist, inker or letterer) these assistants would generally not get a byline. Why? Because these people were free to come and go as they pleased and often did. This was not invented by Kane but historically goes back as early as Bud Fisher (The creator of MUTT AND JEFF) and even earlier if you include student\apprenticeships of the Fine Art community. Getting back to Kane and Finger, Kane wisely had Bill and his other assistants sign a Work-For-Hire agreement. That's why DC can't get involved in any of this. Finger was never entitled to any share of Batman whatsoever. So from the position of "creator rights" the Kane\Finger story is notoriously out of place. 4. You made numerous errors. Bill did NOT create Robin, the Batcave or Alfred. Robin was created by Kane and Jerry Robinson but Bill wrote the backstory. Like most Kane Studio creations, Robin was created by several people but they were all owned by Kane in agreement with DC. Alfred and the Batcave were created by the screen writers of the first Batman Movie Serial. If DC does any thing for the Finger family or any of their Golden or Silver Age creators and their families, it is out of a courtesy and gratitude but they are NOT required to do so by law.
Pulsar Stargrave (3 years ago)
+JC Velasquez Thanks. Thanks. For me the issues are clear cut but I admit that may be due to the fact that I LOVE comics (not just DC or Marvel) and I have studied the medium, first, newspaper strips and then comic books. Lately, I've been getting into the history of political cartoons but still not in any great depth. Most fans really don't understand the time period in question; This was the very early DC when they behaved more like a PUBLISHER and less like a COMIC BOOK COMPANY (which is akin to a Toy Maker or auto maker where the company owns everything!) Personally, I think WILDCAT may be Finger's creation and I'll tell you why, and forgive me if I've said this before:  1. "Wildcat" was supposedly one of the names he was going to suggest for the "Robin" concept. 2. I recently read an interview with Irwin Hasen who said that DC (or rather All-American, the sister-company) had a project called "Wildcat" and asked if he would be interested in drawing it. They also knew he had been a prize-fighter (I think) and he knew a little about the business. In other words, like with Finger and Green Lantern, Hasen was brought in AFTER THE FACT. The publisher of All American, Max Gaines was a reasonable business man, and if my guesswork is true, if ever there was a time for a Finger or anyone else to create and negotiate co-ownership of a concept, that was it. But I don't think Finger was interested in that. He wanted to be a writer not a business man, and like so many artists and writers have learned, you have to think of it more than as something you love to do, you have to think of it as a profession or a small business either that or do something else to earn a living, (hopefully one that's related) and do what you "love" in your spare time. I would love to have a rational discussion with someone about the Kane Studio. That was quite a group and I thought they kicked butt on the Siegel and Shuster Studio! To me, as far as comic books went in that time, they were only surpassed by Simon and Kirby!
JC Velasquez (3 years ago)
+Pulsar Stargrave Absolutely agree with all points.
ViolentVegan (3 years ago)
Bob Kane deserves sole credit for creating Batman.... IN THE BIZZARO UNIVERSE!!!
Matthew Luck (3 years ago)
DC Comics could flex some muscle and send a letter to the Bob Kane estate to get them to move on a byline for Bill Finger.
Vinnie MacIsaac (3 years ago)
Thank you Thank You Thank You!
Pulsar Stargrave (3 years ago)
+The Wulff Den If the issue is strictly based on a star on the Walk of Fame, Finger might be eligible based on his work in TELEVISION. He Co-Wrote the Clock King episodes on the Adam West Batman show and he worked on other shows like HAWAIIAN EYE. He also did the screenplay for a movie I think is called "The Green Slime". 
WULFF DEN (3 years ago)
you're quite welcome!
ShantyGaming (4 years ago)
Sadly, DC can't do anything, their hands are tied to a deal that was signed many many years ago. Until Bob Kane's estate allows Bill Finger to be credited as a co-creator, DC can't change anything in fear of being sued and potentially even losing the rights to Batman. So unfortunately it's not DC fans have to look towards to change this, it's Kane's estate. No copy of a contract between Kane and Finger is available, even though it's widely excepted. I'm sure many fans including myself would love to see Finger get his credit, and one day I hope it happens.
TheRyanCat (2 years ago)
You guys probably aren't reading this, but I bet you'll be happy to know that Bill Finger was credited in Batman V Superman for the FIRST TIME!
Pulsar Stargrave (2 years ago)
+David Frigault This is what I like, someone with knowledge. I admit I'm not as knowledgeable about old Hollywood as I am about comics but I do know that in certain mediums, "credit" had to be EARNED, you didn't just get it because you showed up. A camera person himself might have an "uncredited" assistant, ditto a screenwriter. If I remember correctly, Buster Keaton got some of his earliest "uncredited" experience aiding his boss, "Fatty" Arbuckle! These people didn't feel "ripped off" they felt they were gaining experience. As for comics in particular, when a cartoonist hired an assistant, he or she didn't know how long that person was going to work for them. It might be on one story or it may be as little as a "plot" or a "gag" (joke) and nothing more. Or even as little as doing research. Again, most never felt "exploited", they gained experience. If they DID feel they weren't getting enough "credit" or money, they would leave for better opportunities elsewhere. That's why I brought up Al Capp in another post some where. He got tired of working for the creator of "Bazooka Joe" so he left and sold his own comic strip: LIL' ABNER! Now publishers who reprint a lot of these old comic strips or the writers interested in that time period, go out of their way to learn who a lot of these former assistants were and I appreciate it because I am interested in learning about people like Matt Baker, Dana Dutch and many others. What I'm NOT interested in are gossip mongers who only like to dig up dirt or pit one creator against another. As for the Kane Studio, Kane already had an operation in place before BATMAN. Kane sold strips he did alone and later strips he did with Bill Finger and sometimes "Shelly" Moldoff. If i'm not mistaken, Kane's father introduced Kane and Moldoff to each other and later Kane met Bill at a party. I really like The Kane Studio, I thought they were the best in comics at that time, second or third behind Simon and Kirby and The Captain Marvel Group over at Fawcett. I resent people who use Bill to attack Kane. Kane gave him his start; Bill was instrumental in Batman's success and Finger DID benefit from his experience and that's a fact, plain and simple.
Pulsar Stargrave (2 years ago)
+David Frigault Where are you getting your info because most of it is WRONG. Jerry Robinson's version of The Joker wasn't used. The Joker as we know him came from Finger's showing Kane a picture of Conrad Veidt in his make-up for a movie called "The Man Who Laughs". And what's this about Kane didn't do "much of the actual work". He didn't rely on his ghosts until late in Sayre Schwartz' tenure. He Co-Created the characters, designed or co-designed most if not all and he laid out the pages. And you can't compare movies with comics too much because the one who realized they could give "credit" without paying a lot of extra money (same ol' crappy wages) is Stan Lee and this was nearly 20 YEARS later.  But remember, the early DC was not like what DC evolved into. In the early days, when Kane was working for them, DC didn't have freelancers. They had agreements with cartoonists whose work wasn't good enough for the Newspaper syndicates. Now, if these cartoonists had assistants, they wouldn't receive credit because, that's just not the way it was done. If you wanted "credit" you had to negotiate with the cartoonist OR go out on your own and create your own strip! You couldn't go whining to DC as it literally wasn't their business, their contract was with the head cartoonist. But what DC could do and did, was hire a lot of former assistants who would become the beginning of DC's "bullpen" of freelancers. After you learn more about comics, especially Batman, I'll rap with you but generally i'm tired of volunteering free information when there's plenty of material out there.
Pulsar Stargrave (2 years ago)
+David Frigault The problem with your scenario is that Batman WASN'T Finger's "idea" and he admitted this. He contributed some ideas about the costume. That's why I find Kane a more inspiring figure than Finger, who I also like. I don't want to see a bunch of young fans wanting to "Write for Kane" or "Write for DC or Marvel" that's all well and good in the short run. But if you want to be remembered AND reap the rewards for your ideas, the best way is to get out and create your own comic strip! Now that is HARD, it's practically a small business and if it fails, it's on you, which is why a lot of people end up becoming journey men and women; because it's safer. But there are a lot of risks with that too, just read comments from some of the veterans of the comic book field.
Pulsar Stargrave (2 years ago)
+David Frigault Kane CORRECTLY had Finger and his other assistants sign work-for-hire agreements. It doesn't matter who did what, they were all journeymen who worked for Kane, it was his comic strip. Robinson only gets "credit" for the idea of The Joker but the final version was created by Kane and Finger. Finger contributed some ideas about The Batman's costume, but the visuals were done by Kane. The issue about "credit" is a false one stirred up by people who only know a spoonful about the origins of the series.  In a studio system, every studio member is going to put their "finger prints" on it, but at the end of the day, there is only ONE BOSS. As one person put it "No Kane--No Batman" I'll even go so far as to say No FINGER. He wanted to be a writer, not a COMIC BOOK writer. If he hadn't met Kane, he probably would have gone into the pulps and if he had got around to comics, it would have been later.
Steve Jones Gaming (4 years ago)
Nope, Bill was a bad business man, bob signed the deal and without even that basic red spandex character bill wouldn't have had the ideas he did regarding the character nor would any of the other guys who as you said ghost drew, which means they knew they weren't going to get proper credit outside of a pay check. Mind you i hate Bruce as a character, so knowing that the person who created his character is going unnoticed is fine by me. SO YEAH created by Bob Kane. Sounds good to me
klyzn (4 years ago)
Bill Finger, due to all the evidence. Batman has heart, don't think Kane can pull that off.
rosh kapel (4 years ago)
if bill finger did what the evidence implies he did.....he should definitely get his credit deserved...and also an open apology or acknowledgement, royalties should be paid to his family, i mean anything and everything...batman is my favorite super hero and bruce wayne is my icon
Rei (4 years ago)
Bob Kane: The only supervillain worse than The Joker.
Leigh Silver (1 month ago)
Bob not a Supervillian. He came up with the name he showed to his friend BIll and Bill said Trust me do this. Bob did
GamesSlayr (4 years ago)
I see Bill Finger as the only creator of Batman. Let's face it, if DC went with Bob kane's idea, i'm pretty sure non of us would have heard of Batman because he would have been that terrible. Batman is popular in comics and movies because of Bill Finger, not Bob Kane.
Steve Jones Gaming (3 years ago)
+WayneAnime and steranko may be lying... I personally see no reason why Finger would always cite that Bob had a say or hand in creation if it was all just him (he said this for robin). Also Robinson has gone on record saying it was a group effort if Kane, Finger & himself when making joker...id believe that maybe Jim was full of it
Steve Jones Gaming (3 years ago)
+WayneAnime and not what the contract said, Bob was a business man and he did one of the best business moves outside Walt. No matter what his name will always be attached to one of the most popular superheroes in the world and possibly beyond when we colonize the stars.
Steve Jones Gaming (3 years ago)
+WayneAnime​ not gonna read all that . Bill was okay with Bob taking credit, and as I don't like bill's characters ,however without Bob there'd be no Batman so Bob deserves the headline he got
Steve Jones Gaming (3 years ago)
+WayneAnime​ and you need to research it because outside the red outfit he wasn't going for Superman at all, he was going for a gun totting pulp hero . As someone who doesn't like Bruce... At all... as hes popularly portrayed, I'd rather have what Bob wanted. Also without what bob brought to Bill, Batman would have never been in its current form at all. Without kane there would be no Wayne , without finger there would have always been batman. 
Steve Jones Gaming (3 years ago)
+WayneAnime but without the idea you wouldn't have the character, no matter how barebones it is , without a skeleton the body can not retain shape
DeVstatrOmga (4 years ago)
In my book, Bill Finger is the one and ONLY TRUE creator of Batman. Period.
Michelle B (4 years ago)
I know all about this, I think thousands of fans have learned about this in the past 6 months.  After what I have read about this whenever I see a Batman T-shrirt, toy, anything, I think of Bill Finger and how gets no credit for being the majority creator of this historical comic book character and everything to do with it. I don't give a crap about some old contract, the world deserves to know the truth about who created Batman who is known in every corner of the world. Fingers family deserves that this legacy be public and not stifled.  I say protest all Batman products until he gets it, I'm serious. They can find a way to get his name on it. Bob Kane even said he wanted that in his bio. His family has no right to not allow that cause they want all the money. I read they refused to consider it 2 years ago when approached by DC to change the credit.  Not OK! 
Travis Langley (4 years ago)
Thank you for bringing some attention to this issue. We shared your video on the "Credit Bill Finger" page on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/FingerInGotham  This is greatly appreciated. Justice for Finger!
Shockwave50 (4 years ago)
Thanks for the history lesson. Keep up the great vids
Daniel Sanchez (4 years ago)
I heard about this on Fatman on batman I think I remember hearing that there was gonna be a documentary about bill finger I'm not sure
Daniel Sanchez (4 years ago)
That's good news
Michelle B (4 years ago)
They were successful, and that is happening, being worked on now from what I understand.
Jonathan Chalmers (4 years ago)
they where trying to get one together.  but im not sure if they were successful

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